Transcript of Q&A: Senator Risa Hontiveros and Bureau of Immigration
March 4, 2025
TRANSCRIPT OF Q&A: SENATOR RISA HONTIVEROS AND BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION
March 04, 2025
Senator Risa Hontiveros (SRH): So balik po ako sa BI. I recall po noong November 24, sabi po ninyo, you wrote a letter to the different immigration units in Asia at ang status ng marami doon ay awaiting reply. I recall the summary of correspondences the bureau submitted then were various requests and reiterations of requests to various addresses, Indonesian, Malaysian, Singaporean, Australian, Hong Kong, beginning August 2024 till November 2024. At at least kalahati nito, anim, ay awaiting reply. So four months na po. So may reply na po ba sila sa inyo at sa atin? Yes, Chief Manahan.
Fortunato Manahan (BI Intelligence Division Chief): Madam Chair, good morning. With regard po sa issue of the results ng mga replies, as far as I can remember, Madam Chair, no official replies, written replies received by the Bureau of Immigration as of this date.
Pero sa informal channel po, Madam Chair, may mga information po sila na sinabi na walang results or wala hong information with regard to the arrival or departure of the Guos on those particular dates. But ma'am, with regard to the written or official replies, the Bureau of Immigration haven't received any from those counterparts.
SRH: So okay lang po ba yun sa atin? I mean, basta na lang 'di na lang natin malalaman kung paano nakaalis si Guo Hua Ping et al?
Manahan: Madam Chair, last year, the Bureau of Immigration submitted the report to your Honorable Office, Madam Chair. And with regard to any progress or developments as manifested last November, we will consult with, we will check from the Office of the Commissioner if there's any reports submitted from November to this date, Madam Chair.
SRH: But of course, sir, bago po kayong lahat pumunta rito sa hearing, siguro naman in-update na po kayo ng office ni Commissioner. So, ibig pong sabihin, is this normal na susulat ang ating Bureau of Immigration sa mga counterparts nyo sa ibang mga bansa sa Asia? And aside from information through informal channels na wala silang resulta, na walang official and written reply at all? Or ni walang informal information of something more substantive. Okay din po ba sa kanila yung ganoon?
Manahan: Doon sa case po ng Guo case, ma'am, as I can remember, yung Commissioner Tansingco at that time sent a letter, official letter to the Commissioner of Indonesia. Iyon po yung naging way para ma-hold ng Indonesia government yung si Sheila and Cassandra and eventually turned over to the Bureau of Immigration that time. So ang ginamit po dito is an official letter by the BI to the Indonesian government.
But with regard to possible routes or entries and exits, yung office naman po ng Intelligence Division, without any written or official letter, consulting or asking information via informal channels, ma'am. Iyon po yung nangyari dun sa...
SRH: But it was no longer Commissioner Tansingco who promised this subcommittee, promised me, promised our chair, Senator Koko Pimentel, that there would be an update, there would be a report. It was already Commissioner Viado. So, kasi kung titigil lang tayo sa ganitong status, we're inutile as a country. Apat na buwan na po and we still don't know how fugitives got past our borders undetected? If you could tell the Committee on record, Chief Manahan for the BI, in short, hindi pa po alam hanggang ngayon ng Bureau of Immigration. Will you make that of record?
Manahan: Yes, Honorable Chair.
SRH: Alright. You can imagine the frustration that the whole Committee and our chair, the Senate, would feel about this kind of status na hindi pa natin ma-solve yung... It shouldn't even be a mystery. It's a simple matter of fact na dapat by now nalalaman natin. Very regrettable po.
Now, nung nakaraang taon, sinabi ng Presidente na, nung nakatakas si Guo Hua Ping, sinabi ng Presidente na heads will roll. So may update na po ba sa internal investigation naman sa BI, sa mga opisyal nito na maaring sangkot o kasabwat sa pagtakas ni Guo Hua Ping? So kung may update, ilan po ang nakasuhan, ilan po ang may administrative sanctions?
Manahan: Ma'am, we will check if there's any from the Office of the Commissioner, if there's any.
SRH: Chief Manahan, you're the Chief of the Intelligence Division. Do you know if there is an internal investigation or there's not? Meron po bang kinasuhan o wala? Meron po bang administratively sina-sanction o wala?
Manahan: As far as I'm concerned, ma'am, wala po akong alam. Kasi may ibang offices din po kasing ang tawag doon na in-charge, which is the Board of Discipline, or BOD, Board of Discipline, who conducts also investigation when it comes to personnel matters, Madam Chair.
SRH: But I suppose, kahit Board of Discipline ang directly in charge, dapat alam din ng Intelligence Division. I can't imagine there's any other Intelligence Division of any other institution here na kung hindi man sila ang in charge directly sa isang internal investigation sa hanay nila. And in fairness to BI, I will ask similar questions of the other agencies. 'Di ko ma-imagine na may Intelligence Division ng ano pa mang institution dito, who would be totally unaware kung mayroong internal investigation. Lalo na, apat na buwan na po mula nung huling itanong ito. So again, medyo magto-throw up ng hands ang Subcommittee sa ganyang status. I mean, what is the BI doing if not finding out paano nakatakas si Guo Hua Ping, then at the very least, finding out kung mayroon ba at kung mayroon, kung sino ang kasabwat sa loob ng Bureau. Does the Bureau even know kung saan border umalis si Guo Hua Ping? Saang border dito sa Pilipinas?
Manahan: Ma'am, we will submit compliance report to your office, Madam Chair. But I'm sorry, but as of this time, we don't have any information kung saang ports or sub-ports nakatakas sila, Guo siblings, Madam Chair.
SRH: So we don't know anything. Four months later, more than four months later, kung paano sila nakatakas, kung may tumulong ba sa kanilang mga opisyal o kawani ng gobyerno natin, pati sa BI, kung saan port or coast man lang ng archipelago natin siya tumakas.
And I mean, ang Senate kasi, treaty-making body, so laging top of mind din namin yung ibang mga bansa. Sulat po nang sulat ang bureau sa ibang mga gobyerno, sa ibang mga Bureaus of Immigration ng ibang mga gobyerno. Hanggang ngayon, wala pa silang official reply.
So, tapos na ba yun? Okay na ba yun? How does the BI even feel about this? Okay po ba yung ganito, Chief?
Manahan: I fully agree, Madam Chair. We will submit any compliance report as soon as possible, Madam Chair, to your office.
SRH: As soon as possible was last year, Director. Paulit-ulit po yung ganyan mga, we will submit. Haba po ng pasensya ng Subcommittee na ito at ng mga miyembro at ng chair.
Kung ako kayo, nakakainis yung ibang mga Bureau of Immigration na ibang mga bansa. Wala man lang maibigay na maayos na sagot. It is totally unacceptable.
I'll ask you now and I hope the Bureau has some answers naman about these other issues.
There are three, supposedly three, POGO bosses who are supposed to have been deported to China. Ang mga pangalan nila ay Lyu Xun, Kong Xiangrui, and Wang Shangle. I'm almost sure alam nyo itong mga pangalan na ito. Sila po ay unang deportees after the raid of Rirance company where 4,500 Chinese POGO workers were rounded up. Tanong ko po sa inyo, hindi lang kay Chief Manahan, pati kay Attorney Santos or Acting Chief Uy. Tanong ko po sa inyo, ang sinakyan ba nila ay direct flight o transit flight lang? And may we see a copy of the implementation order of their deportation? Si Attorney Santos.
Atty. Arvin Cesar Santos (BI Legal Division Chief): We will secure the copy, ma'am, and check on these names. But we would also like to reiterate the press release of Commissioner Viado regarding the transit flights. So our Commissioner reiterated the requirements for deportation, which is the passport, the ticket, and the NBI clearance for coordination with our partner agencies. We do that with regard to fugitives once they are declared as fugitives by their governments. So, in this case, ma'am, we will retrieve the documents and update the committee.
SRH: No. Those three were the first deportees after the raid on Rirance where not tens, not hundreds, but thousands of Chinese POGO workers were rounded up. And those three bosses, POGO bosses, were supposed to be deported to China.
I think during this hearing, you can provide us a copy of the deportation order. Imposibleng wala yun. And very importantly, direct flight ba ang binook sa kanila o transit flight lamang yung sinakyan nila? Yes, Chief Manahan.
Manahan: Madam Chair, if I can recall, yung first, meron pong first three na dineport. Part of the reruns na 438. Yung ticket po nila, as I can recall, is Air Asia bound for China. Meron po yatang layover.
SRH: Saan yung layover, Chief?
Manahan: I can't recall but it parang Hong Kong. Madam Chair.
SRH: Hongkong, itong tatalo, itong first three, ay itong sina Lyu Xun, Kong Xiangrui and Wang Shangle. Can you confirm that, Chief?
Manahan: Yes, ma'am. I'll go back to my record, Madam Chair. Pero po yung tatlong ito na claim to be bosses, actually ma'am, 438 foreign nationals, we never have any information na may boss or bosses doon. So kung...
SRH: But if you confirm itong tatlo na sina Lyu, Kong at Wang, ang tatlong unang dineport they are reportedly Chinese POGO bosses. May at least initial information sa kanila na ganun.
Manahan: Yes ma'an. Whoever the agency reported na yun po yung mga bosses, we don't have any idea. Actually we arrest only. We're not particular on any classification or categories of the ranks ng mga ina-aresto ng...
SRH: So please send me the implementation order on the deportation of those first three. Lalo na kung maconfirm natin na sila, Sina Lyu, Kong, at Wang. The three I named.
Manahan: Madam Chair, can I share something?
SRH: Please. The BI needs to share more para maging kapakipakinabang itong hearing na ito. Yes, please proceed, Chief.
Manahan: First is the ticket. The usual deportation po, we secure assistance from the embassy to provide tickets. Ito po yung mga challenges ng BI kung saan kukunin po yung mga tickets. Ngayon, there's a clamor to deport yung mga nauhuli the soonest and the fastest time.
So ang ginawa po ng BI, nag-initiate po sila ng dialogue with the PDLs kung sino po yung pwedeng magbigay or mag-shoulder or mag-purchase ng kanilang mga tickets. So January 8 po nangyari ito, matter of two weeks. Ito na po yung pinakafastest deportation na nangyayari sa history ng BI, two weeks. At ang unang nagpa-deport is yung tatlo po yan na yun na kiniclaim to be boss or bosses.
SRH: Siyempre, kung bosses sila, afford na afford nila. Kasi kumita na sila ng malaki sa POGO dito. Pero yung mga PDLs pa ang tinanong kung pwedeng mag-shoulder ng tickets sila. Hindi ba dapat may pondo ang BI para sa deportation na inuutos ng BI?
Manahan: Madam Chair, sorry to say, wala po. Kaya yung mga challenges po ng BI, wala po silang allocated funds for the tickets ng mga deportees. Madam Chair, also, the reason po na dineport itong tatlo, wala naman po silang, ang Chinese embassy at that time, wala pong minanifest na itong tatlong ito is fugitive or mayroong criminal offense sa China. It's been two weeks and we've been coordinating this to the said embassy, pero no written letter or no holdings manifested from the Chinese embassy.
Ang in-implement po natin dito is the Philippine law not to remove them the soonest time possible sa country as directed by the President during the time of the SONA to ban and cease and desist all operations and to remove them.
SRH: And did those first three, lalo na kung sila, sina Lyu, Kong at Wang, aktwal ba silang nakarating sa China, their destination supposedly upon deportation?
Manahan: Madam Chair, that, we don't have any information.
SRH: Why don't you have information? Why doesn't the Bureau have information? BI of the Republic of the Philippines orders deportation of 438 persons, including these three, who I think are the Chinese POGO bosses I named. Dapat end-to-end para makumpleto yung deportation process, bakit walang information kung nakarating sila aktwal sa destination nila?
Manahan: Well, I can, if my chief legal can correct me, but my personal opinion to this is that our main objective is to simply remove them out of the country and implement the deportation.
SRH: No, sir. I think even pending receipt of the copy of the deportation order, malinaw na removed from the Philippines but arriving in some other country. And sir, and not just Chief Manahan, Atty. Santos, you may want to address my follow-up question. Paano kung sabihin ko sa inyo na hindi sila nakarating sa China at nawala na lang sa layover?
You told me na destination nila was China but they were going to have a layover in Hong Kong. Paano kung sabihin ko sa inyo na I have confirmation na ni kaluluwa nila hindi na nakarating sa China? Hindi ba responsibility natin, as I was asking Chief Manahan, responsibility natin tiyakin na diretso pa uwi ang ating dinedeport? So what would you say to that information?
Santos: Yung responsibility na yan, Senator, is for, as far as the BI is concerned, ang protocol namin is once they are declared fugitive, we make sure that they are either escorted or alam ng kanilang embassy.
Yung prior knowledge ng embassy yung pag-deport sa kanila. Pag hindi sila declared as fugitive, our duty is to ensure that they are boarded to their country. Yan ho yung, hanggang dyan po yung Bureau of Immigration na that they are ensured that they are deported. Sinakay sila ng airline.
SRH: And shouldn't they be boarded for their country on a direct flight? Lalo na given the nature of these deportations. Hindi lang siya, deportation alone seryoso na, pero deportation in connection with a ban on POGOs na napatunayan ang sasama ng epekto sa atin.
Santos: Yes, ma'am. As intimated by Chief Jun Manahan of our Intelligence Division, when we deported them, they have not been declared as fugitives by their country, by China. So when we deported them, it was a regular deportation.
SRH: Doesn't regular deportation mean direct flight without a layover?
Arvin Santos: Ma'am, as intimated by our Commissioner, we accept what ticket is available.
SRH: So, but isn't it true also, attorney, that the Chinese embassy in the Philippines actually wrote to the BI, complained about the layover flights?
Santos: Wala ho, ma'am. Wala silang sinubmit regarding that.
SRH: I have information to the contrary. Sumulat ang Chinese embassy, diumano sa Bureau, para ireklamo yung layover flights. And bakit? Napakakulang ba ng direct flights sa China para kailangang mag-rely on layover flights? Lalo na conveniently for these three, first three na dineport na sa pagkaalam ko ay mga supposedly mga POGO bosses. Wala bang sapat na direct flights?
Santos: Ma'am, if I may reiterate, we accept what ticket was presented.
SRH: Presented by whom po?
Santos: That is, I will get back to you ma'am because it is our deportation unit that accepts the ticket.
SRH: Where is the deportation unit sir? Wala ba sila ngayon?
Santos: Wala po but we will check it ma'am.
SRH: Hindi ba isa sa inyo ay in charge sa deportation unit?
Santos: Yes ma'am, under legal division.
SRH: So sa ilalim ninyo, Atty. Santos?
Santos: Yes ma'am.
SRH: So sa ilalim ninyo, Atty. Santos. So during this hearing, I can't believe I have to ask all of these itty-bitty follow-up questions. Alam nyo naman po yung agenda ng hearing ngayon, that we were hoping to close it already. Kasi apat na buwan na at least ang iniintay ng sagot sa mga tanong na ito. So can you, before this hearing adjourns, can you please inform the committee why we had to rely on transit flights for deportees who are related to the big POGO issue, including those first three na sa pagkaalam ko ay mga Chinese bosses. Ang deportation unit ba sa ilalim ng legal division ang responsable sa ganyang arrangements?
Santos: Yes, ma'am. So deportation.
SRH: And sabi niyo nga po kanina, deportation, ine-escort ng BI. So, wala po bang kasama yung dinedeport dun sa unang grupong ayun ng 438? Kasi bakit malaya na lang silang nakapuslit?
Santos: Ma'am, when we say escorted, only up to the boarding at the airline.
SRH: Ah, that's not escorting.
Santos: Yun lang po talaga yung procedure ng deportation.
SRH: So, sinong magiging responsable to make sure they actually arrive at their destination, in this case, China. At hindi lang sila magdi-disappear into the crowd sa layover nila.
Santos: Pagka declared as fugitive, that's when we ensure. But in this case, they are not fugitives.
SRH: Well, ito po yung kailangan niyong malaman sa lahat ng resource persons natin mula sa BI. They never arrived in China. I'm making that off record for the committee. Itong tatlo na pinangalanan ko kanina, Liu, Hong, at saka Wang, who I think are the first three na binanggit ni Chief Manahan na dineport sa group, kasama ng grupo na 438, they never arrived in China. O dahil sa Pilipinas, nakapuslit sila.
What a shame, no? I mean, dahil sa atin, against whom they committed the most crimes, sa mga kababayan natin, nakapuslit sila. So a deportation gone wrong. A simple and regular operation of the Bureau dapat. Hindi pa na-achieve ang objectives, Atty. Santos.
Santos: Ma'am, if I may please clarify. Deportation means that we ensure that they are boarded out of the country and they are blacklisted not to be able to return unless their blacklist is lifted by the commissioner.
In this case, they are blacklisted. They were not declared as fugitives. So the BI ensured that they are boarded out of the country. Yan po yung duty ng BI. Hindi sila dineclare as fugitive. Alam ho ng Chinese Embassy that they were arrested and they were not declared as fugitive.
SRH: How convenient, hindi sila na-declare na fugitive. And yet, I have that information also na actually nagreklamo ang Chinese Embassy sa Bureau tungkol in particular dun sa layover flights.
Santos: Ma'am, wala akong sinubmit sila regarding that.
SRH: Well, as I mentioned earlier, attorney, I have information to the contrary. So, it's either the Bureau or the Embassy who is not telling the complete truth to the committee, unfortunately. So, yes, Chief Manahan.
Manahan: Madam Chair, as far as I can recall also, there's a letter sent by the Chinese Embassy to the Bureau of Immigration. Pero it's an appeal, Madam Chair, to hold the deportation process for the Chinese nationals as much as we can, so, they can charter the flight of the remaining 100 plus, Madam Chair, to China.
Sa part naman po ng immigration, Madam Chair, ang sinabi po natin sa Chinese Embassy at that time, we will continue deporting these foreign nationals as much as we can, kasi po yun ang objective ng BI to fast track all the deportation process.
In fact, Madam Chair, sa 438 na yun, more than half already deported ng BI. Yun po yung letter na alam ko po na pinadala ng Chinese Embassy, appealing na kung pwede i-hold. Ang sabi naman po ng BI, we cannot hold the deportation. Walang makakahinto po ng deportation process ng BI kung kaya pong mag-remove and mag-remove on a daily basis as much as we can. Yan po yung naging reason po nung letter naman, Madam Chair.
SRH: Salamat para doon, Chief Manahan. But we still have to complete the picture and the communications dahil parang hindi pa rin nagbabangga eh between BI, which is part of our republic, and the Chinese embassy, which is of another government.
Santos: If I may also share regarding, I'm reviewing my communication with the deputy police attache of the Chinese embassy. So we wrote them a letter saying that in the previous meeting of our deportation implementation unit head with them, I was not a part of that meeting.
But we wrote them and said that in your previous meeting with the DIU, Deportation Implementation Unit head, you said that there is no problem with connecting flights. So when we sent that, the reply of the Deputy Police Attaché of the Chinese Embassy, Mr. Zipeng Dai said, "Maybe there is some misunderstanding regarding transit flights. We will send a reply this week."
That was that message was on February 18. Up to now, I have not seen any letter that he said he will send regarding that issue, ma'am. So may we just put that also on record?
SRH: Well, in any case, attorney, if this is the current policy overall regarding deportations, lalo na kaugnay ng POGO, which is arguably the hottest issue na hinarap ng gobyerno in the last year, then I'm telling you, maybe we need to revisit this policy, how it has been implemented so far. Kasi we are letting these rotten apples, like itong sina Lyu Xun, Kong Xiangrui, at saka Wang Shangle, just get away, scot free.
Okay, and the reason that it's so disturbing is, tiyak pa sa sikat na araw na maghasik na lang ulit ng lagim ang mga yan. E baka nga nakabalik na sila o ang mga tulad nila dito sa Pilipinas, tungkol pa rin sa tila, napaka-porous natin ang mga borders. Parang napakadaling takasan o pasukin ng mga kriminal na elemento.
Pwede niyo po bang talakayan naman ang immigration status ng mga nababalitang Chinese spies? Kung paano sila nakakapasok at nakakapirme dito sa Pilipinas. Has the BI even taken cognizance of this issue? And ano ang kaalaman nyo doon?
Manahan: Yes, Madam Chair. We're closely coordinating with the NBI, Cybercrime, with regard to that particular case. Hindi ko lang dalaram yung case folder but we have the identities and the visa details noong first five na pinresent sa isang press conference ng NBI.
SRH: At ano po yung kanilang immigration status itong first five?
Manahan: I will check, ma'am, and I will update you, ma'am, with regard to the visa details.
SRH: Please do that, Chief, within this hearing.
Manahan: Yes, Madam Chair. And habang may criminal charge filed case dun po sa lima for espionage, yun din naman po ang aming kinukomite sa NBI na sasampahan din po namin ng immigration violation and charge.
So both administratively and criminally charged po yung magiging violation and offense ng five subjects or involved sa espionage.
SRH: Sino po yung BI officer or personnel na tinutukoy nyo?
Manahan: No, NBI, ma'am. In charge sa case.
SRH: No, you mentioned something about that you will investigate or implement disciplinary proceedings. Just your previous statement.
Manahan: It's the five subjects, ma'am, na involved sa espionage, the foreign nationals. While the criminal case is ongoing, Ee will also file immigration violation charge or charges against these five.
SRH: Against these five, alright. And mamaya, tatanungin ko rin ng NBI kung ano mga aktibidades nitong lima ang binantayan nila and ano yung mga action nila na gagawin sa ugnay nila. Would you be able to also tell us during this hearing, anong mga, paano sila nakapasok at nakapirme dito, itong lima? Thank you. We'll be awaiting that.
And last but not the least for now, for the BI, nasaan na nga pala si Harry Roque? Kung hindi nyo alam kung paano nakatakas si Guo Hua Ping, alam nyo ba kung nasaan si Harry Roque sa ngayon? Is he still in Dubai?
Manahan: Madam Chair, we can't recall the dates anymore. But the last information that we had against, on the couple, the Roques, yung wife na umalis po ng Singapore, yung wife, and then nag-bound for Dubai. And there's also a sighting of Harry Roque also in Dubai.
There's also an information na umalis po sila sometime December. And then, yung information po na yun after, any information after, sorry Madam Chair, but we don't have any more information.
SRH: Alam nyo ba na pumunta silang, or at least si Harry Roque, pumunta sa Singapore sa loob ng isang araw? Or rather, pumunta ng, alam nyo ba na pumunta siyang Shanghai for one day?
Manahan: Meron pong information pero wala po kaming validated proof na enter po siya ng China.
SRH: At meron ba kayong information or validated proof na mula sa Shanghai na isang araw lang ang tinagal niya doon tumuloy siya sa Macau?
Manahan: Madam Chair, wala po kaming ano. Pero meron po kaming alam na pumunta rin po siya ng Japan. And hindi po siya nakaalis. Supposed to be bound for US pero denied flight, denied check-in.
So wala rin naman hong holdings ang Japan Police or Japan Immigration. Then after that wala na po kami information.
SRH: Saan po siya sa Japan ayon sa information?
Manahan: Sorry, wala po kaming exact details.
SRH: And bound supposedly saan sa US ayon sa information?
Manahan: We don't have any information also, Madam Chair.
SRH: So, do you know if he's still in Macau?
Manahan: Sorry, Madam Chair, we don't have any information.
SRH: Alright. Salamat, Chief Manahan.
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